Thursday, May 5, 2011

TBM Email Part 4

I've been busy again lately, but I should be able to post regularly for a week or so before I possibly get busy again. I'm a little hit and run with my posting, but I try to keep serving you guys and gals up.

Here is some more of that TBM email. This is really part 2, being this is the TBM's second email. I'll go through it in two more posts, and then I'm done. I mentioned before that it only get's worse, and this one proves that. To see the other parts go back to the April posts.

NOTE: What I'm doing here is replying to a TBM who emailed an atheist friend of mine. She replied on her own, and my replies have not been sent to him. In essence I'm debating him without letting him know I am debating him. Really I just pulled out the more funny or absurd things. He really seems like a nice and intelligent guy, but I have a hard time being nice by this point in his emails as he gets worse and worse. His statements are italicized.

You say that 'we could be open to the possibility if presented proof.' Why would God, Omnipotent, have to provide you with a secular proof? … I do not find atheism an open philosophy. It assumes God is discernible via crude, man made systems of finding objective truth. It is entirely reasonable to assume that God can only be found on the terms He sets.” – What exactly is a ‘secular proof’ for God? I’m not sure even I understand what that means. If God sent Moroni, or was it Nephi, three times during the night and repeated the same message, declaring the gospel true and Mormonism correct and then again later the next day, I think I would believe. Is that secular? Is that ‘asking for a sign?’ You know, asking for Him to do what he did for Joseph Smith and what many Mormons ask for all the time with their begging for answers to prayers and to know it’s true.

God, or the Absolute Law is the only ultimate thing that prevents a descent into hedonism, and it is not a logical error to say so.” – Well, at least he admits it. Of course I don’t expect him to do any research into secularists, atheist, nonreligious, and agnostic countries, groups, or peoples. In fact, in the last sentence he mentioned he liked Carl Sagan … how the hell was Carl Sagan such a good guy if he was agnostic/atheist?! Where did his morals come from? Why wasn’t he a hedonist? Maybe TBM would say he was.

You say that "Religion was created..." This is an unprovable assertion; thus it is another faith based assumption of atheism.” – Religion as a whole? Perhaps he’s right. But specific religions? We have the general and sometimes specific events and times for essentially all religions in the world. And by religions I am separating them from spiritual views, such as paganism obviously. For this though we not only have the birth of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, but also Mormonism.

The moral code of atheism is whatever the atheist says it is in the morning.” – And your moral code is whatever old white men tell you, or 150-3000 year old books and writings. Not much room for anything else. Very specific. The atheist is more open, such as to say that women have fundamental rights that need to be allowed and enforced, or that blacks are not lesser in any significant ways to whites or any other race of human being, or that it is okay to doubt in God and to entertain these thoughts and that you don’t have to be depressed in Mormonism, you can get out! Yes, the moral code of the atheist is far less than the one offered by Mormonism.

One horrifying aspect of atheism is this: a 9 year old african girl is gang raped by 10 thugs. She's laying on a hospital bed, about to die, wracked with pain and horror. As an honest atheist, the only thing you can say, right before you fly back to materialist comfort of the west, is 'tough luck.' And you can hardly blame those 10 thugs. They could get away with it, and since they're nothing more than organic machines, they're doing what they're genetically programmed to do, namely, pass their genes on.” – My question is this: why are theists obsessed with saying that because there’s no God and that we evolved we must act like animals and no reason, logic, emotion, or intellect can tell us otherwise. We all must act in our best and most selfish interests. Holy f***! What is it with people and this statement? If you want to use logic to say:
I am a human being
Human beings need to procreate to survive
Therefore, human beings should rape

Then I will say:
I am a human being
Human beings like to be happy
Therefore, I will not rape.

Same logic, same argument. This is such a retarded argument.

I fail to see how this is more moral than Judeo Christian teaching which teaches the opposite.” – Fuck you. Am I the only one offended by this? I think our atheist friend should be more offended by this statement, which followed his 9-year old African girl (why Africa?) example. First he says, ‘this is what you believe in the faith of atheism!’ and then says he’s better with his scriptural and doctrinal history of being a Mormon. This is hubris.

All educated religious people I have met follow God because He loves them, and they're trying to love Him.” – All you’re educated religious friends are probably Mormon, mystery solved. The more I read the more poisonous I feel Mormonism and religion. It gets to the point that you feel nothing will get these people to look at the world in a better light = that things could change, things can get better, and that the world isn’t another Sodom and Gomorra and we should discriminate. Please refer to older posts on why I don’t think religion is inherently good.

Atheism does not ask you to be good because being good is a good thing to be. Under atheism, the word 'good' is meaningless, it is whatever each individual claims it is. It is always open for debate. Under Judeo-Christianity or Islam, good is what God says it is. What you call 'good' is (excuse me for being presumptious) largely Judeo-Christianity morals that your parents, community, and country have taught your for the past 20 years. There's no logical reason to assume that such morals are 'right.' Religion confirms that they Absolute; atheism says they are arbitrary for all people.” – Demosthenes brought this up a while back and I still don’t buy that Christianity has been the leading moral system for the whole world and most cultures for much of recent history. Influence, yes, definitely, along with all other moral ideas! Some of which are very secular. Again our TBM guy says there’s no logic behind religion, not in morals, not in understanding or knowing God. I don’t know if he means to but he sounds as if he believes in the contradictory Nicene creed.

And that's half of his second email. The next post on this will be the last. Till then.


  1. What's driving me nuts is the idea that, if you're an atheist, then you have no way of objectively making moral choices ... which is of course a total crock of shit. Even on the most basic, animal level, humans are social creatures and will do what is best to keep society operating properly and beneficially. Enter, empathy. Human beings feel empathy because it creates connections between otherwise unconnected persons, solidifying social bonds and motivating us to work toward the common good. Therefore, through objectively studying and discovering what is best for all of us, it is easy for someone to make moral choices without the aid of an stone-age deity.

    To say that there is no morality without religion is to say that we as mere humans have no scientific/rational ("secular") means of understanding what is good for human welfare. And that's just not true.

  2. "One horrifying aspect of atheism is this: a 9 year old african girl is gang raped by 10 thugs...."''

    What the f---??? What does this have to do with anything!?!? This argument in completely nuts!

  3. macha - i agree. religion is a basis to refine morality that is innate, but it certainly isn't the only one, and it has sometimes been the worst one.

    emily - I'm still not quite sure, the whole thing begins going down all kinds of paths. In his mind it probably is a major point against atheism ... on paper, or comp screen, it looks like a facepalm is in need.

  4. Even though I have read the entire exchange of emails before, I just can't believe the crap this guy is spouting.

    Christians make baby Jesus cry.